Curse

fowlero · Oct 21, 2010, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

I'm not sure you're aware of this, but PvPers do PvP. There are as many things broken and malfunctioning in PvP as there are in PvE (that's a lot), and the playerbase has every bit as many elitists. We know - we have to deal with them too.

Joining a ranked HA group is exactly like joining a r10 ursan group or lb8 doa group. You either have the rank and get in instantly, or you are ridiculed, insulted and have your sexual preference questioned. Forming good groups for both PvP and PvE is done in relatively the same manner - you either go in with your guild or you maintain a solid friends list with good players, and you form with that. Joining pugs is always a gamble - even the ranked ones. Playing with people you know is the only way to ensure their skill.

You don't know how high-level PvP works because you haven't done it - but it works pretty much exactly like high-level PvE (it just has a much, much higher skill cap). Try joining a speed clear group without the right bar. Try joining a DoA group without the required level of lightbringer title. The results are the same as trying to GvG with a bad bar or trying to HA with no title.

The difference? Lightbringer only takes a couple of hours to max, and it doesn't take any skill at all. You ride worms around using wormskills and pewpewing trash mobs. I did it while mostly afk - I just came back and c-spaced occasionally, and let the heroes and henchies kill everything.

PvP doesn't work like that. You can't go afk and let the other 7 people on your team do your job for you. Getting the titles takes time and effort and a desire to improve.

Having experienced the frustration of trying to join pugs without being really qualified, I know how shitty it feels to be told I suck too much to play. It isn't fun. But here's where the multitude of whiny PvErs fail to grasp the whole picture - the other players are people, too. They don't find it fun to lose constantly because of a single retard who doesn't know how to run relics, bodyblock an opposing runner, or spike on time. While this doesn't excuse the poor behavior oftentimes exhibited by these players, the fact remains that you are holding them back and you get kicked from the group because of it. It isn't personal, it's just that they want to have a chance at victory.

Yes, Smarty, PvPers know the state of the game. We know that there are elitists, and we know our ways around them. We don't get insulted by one person and throw in the towel. If you find the content fun, do it - don't let elitists stand in your way. Form your own groups. Convince your guild to do HA for an hour or two on weekends. Play with your friends. You don't have to join a pug of strangers to PvP - but when you do, keep it mind that it's exactly like joining one in PvE.

I love you, even more than 12 chars itself.

Faer · Oct 21, 2010, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and last but not least...WHY on earth are ppl wasting SO much time on talking about pvp now when nothing matters anymore. and not like it mattered much in the past, but damn. let it go.

PvE players are mad that they need to PvP for their HoM, so instead of going out and doing it they are bitching about it instead. If they just let it go, they might miss out on some prestige title in GW2, and that would be horrible.

miriforst · Oct 21, 2010, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

In my opinion though, it's people like you that have killed PvP. No one wants to seem to take the time to learn anything or put the effort in to listen. No one seems to want to talk to people or make friends in hopes of getting groups. :| It makes me incredibly sad how many opportunities have presented themselves to PvErs but instead they decide to piss and moan about getting their face kicked in because they won't listen to someone who's trying to help them.

Party search on a sunny day:

GLF R 10+++++
R 8 lfg R 10+
5th R lfg
R9++ group lf ranger
GLF R6+
R9
Starting bbway lf rank 7++
r5 lfg
HA guild lf r10+ and r10+ ally
starting randomway! 3/8
Ls r11 lfg
R8
R4 lfg!
glf pun-spike r6/7+
R5 hb lfg
R4 ele lfg
lfg
Starting iway! r3/4

doesn't seem beginner friendly to me.

but to the OP theres nothing we can do about it.

its like the global warming, you can tell people they do bad stuff, and then they go home and continue doing what they have always done.

*lemming* · Oct 21, 2010, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer

Its not really that the PvPers are at fault for the perceived elitism, but all the same they would be better off understanding why that perception persists.

The problem is, the source of that perception mostly comes from three sources:
1. Heroes' Ascent pugs requiring titles
2. The idiots who populate Random Arenas
3. Hearsay

1 was addressed by Auron.

For 2, try to consider that most of the people being dicks in RA aren't getting anywhere in PvP either. RA is an easy place to lord over presumably inferior people for easy ego trips, but that attitude doesn't work anywhere near as well in organized PvP. Sure, there are still going to be douches at high levels, but the community's markedly better than the tripe you see from playing RA. It's a bit unfair that all PvPers are judged by that standard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miriforst

Party search on a sunny day:

-snip-

doesn't seem beginner friendly to me.

but to the OP theres nothing we can do about it.

its like the global warming, you can tell people they do bad stuff, and then they go home and continue doing what they have always done.

Read Auron's post where he talks about HA pugs.

Rushin Roulette · Oct 21, 2010, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

2. By simply being who he is, the player will be noticed. Good players stand out. An infuser that catches every spike, a mesmer that interrupts every res sig, a warrior that hits every bulls - even without telling the world who he is, that player will be noticed, and will be treated with more respect.

Half the battle starts before you enter the arena. Is your bar up-to-date and using the best skills? Do you know what each of the skills do? Have you used observer mode to check each map and learn where key points are? Do you notice where the frontline, midline and backline is standing in each map? If you haven't done any of this, stepping into the arena will largely be a waste of time. This is a step most PvErs miss (and a step that ANet has done nothing to help).

The point of PvP is to play to win, not to motivate the other team. If the player doesn't want to win, he isn't going to. This isn't farmville, it's PvP.

I love this argument, because this tells me you haven't thought about the bigger picture. I'll sidetrack a bit to enlighten you, because you need to be taught.

Dont get me wrong. Im not interrested and never will personaly be seriously interrested in Guild Wars PvP. I played and ran Tournaments for a few years in PFS games before Guild Wars was even in the Public Beta. I moved to Guild Wars to get a change in pace. Guild Wars PvP is just as tactical as FPS CTF games, but a lot slower in pace by far. Im playing Guild Wars to relax from the stress of having to manage 20+Clans over a few years and coordinating Tournaments, scrimages and ladders as well as actively participating in them.

I think I konw exactly what im talking about when im offering advice and am trying to point out the stupidity of some players who are playing a game with dwindling playerbase but are always placing their expectations of their teammates higher than when the playerbase was active and interrested in the game.

I also know exactly what it means to want to win and to train for winning as well as to devise strategies/attack /defence patterns while observeing and making counter strategies for your next 5 to 6 opponents/possible opponents. Competitive PvP is the same in every game and life situation. Its 80% Strategy and knowledge and 20% actual personal skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Half the battle starts before you enter the arena.

See many players saying the same thing. If you cant even join a group, then theres not much chance at even being noticed and as you have just said... the battle is lost even befroe you can get into the arena.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

You are, in essence, asking every ranked group to pretend that there is no difference in experience between players. That's... well, I'll be polite here... silly as hell. Delusional, even. Life doesn't work like that. You go to college and get a degree and find out that the best companies want several years' work experience. Are you going to tell them that's unfair? That they should take you over someone who has experience, or at least that they should ignore the difference in experience between two applicants? No way!

With a dwindling playerbase... yes I am. Im saying openly to the PvP playerbase... get of your high horse BS and face the facts. You are complainig about the lack of skilled players to play against but are at the same time not willing to teach and to help others become skilled in the game. Then you go cry to Mommy Anet and blame them for breaking your PvP toy by changing your favorite Skills and therefore trying to making a stagnated game dynamic again.

Comming to your comparisson to real life. A good company can and will consider both applicants. The guy with loads of experience will cost a lot more and is rarer than the applicant fresh out of University/College. However, the guy with more experience can be harder to manage because he has his preset experiences with another company which may be hard to get to change if you are using a different system.

The college boy however will cost less, will probably be much easier to train up to company standards but might make more mistakes in the beginning. With good management and tutorage he might be the better and cost effective choice because he will work eh way they want him to work instead of working only how he wants to work.

As you see, Experience and rank are therefore not really the only thing in the real world or in GW. If the PvP player base only concentrate on the shiny emotes, then they are loosing out on the new guy who might actaully turn out better in the end because he is willing to learn and to addapt to new strategies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

In HA specifically, less so in GvG, you are rewarded better for win streaks - the only way to get high ranks is to hold halls. Each consecutive match gives you more and more fame. 40 fame per win seems like a lot to someone with no rank, but for us, it's a drop in the bucket - a bucket we need lots of drops to fill. Lower tier players group with other lower tier players, and they only need a few wins (comparatively) to rank up. Higher tier players naturally want to group with higher tier players, because grouping with a bunch of bads will only get them 1 or 2 fame at a time, when they need several hundred or several thousand to get anywhere. Do you see how this isn't viable?

So your saying that the only reason you play PvP in Guild Wars is to rank up? You dont actually play because you are enjoying the game? Thats pretty sad if you ask me. Try to forget rank and enjoy the game again. Concentrate on having fun again and try to get new players to enjoy the PvP game you love so much by motivating them to like it instead of roflstomping everyone left right and centre just for a few meaningless points and a new shiny emote.

Once you feel like there are enough players who can seriously challenge you skilwise under the new playerbase, then you can go back to rank grouping... but as the situation is... rank grouping is counterproductive if you want MORE players to play PvP instead of scaring them away before they even get the possibility to prove their worth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Nothing is going to revive PvP. Guild Wars is a dead game. A bad dead game. ANet has made it worse and worse over the years, and better, fresher options have come out. Guild Wars is not going to draw playerbase from SC2, League of Legends, or WoW simply with unranked people finding tombs groups easier. Forcing bads into every group will not make the arena come alive, it will only destroy any competitive aspect it has left.

Try letting the "Bads" into the "Goods" group and train the "Bads" to not be "Bads" any more by making them into "Goods".

You seem to have completely missed the point of my last post. I explained how it was with my own expericence in competetive PvP while I was actally active in another game.

We willingly took up bad/new players without question and gave them tips strategies and trained them up even if they were not in our Clans and requested help. This way the player base was dynamic. Old players will always leave games for new challenges and new players comming into the game shouldnt be indiscriminately roflstomped. Teaching strategies for the 2Fort CTF map, camping spots to look out for and where to stand and aim to safely take out campers and snipers in Lockdown/Overrun or Overwatch as well as team strategies for scrimages was ongoing work for us all, but we willingly did it because we loved the game and wanted to share it with others. Only stomping other Clans gets boring after a while and you dull out and loose interrest/change to a different more challenging game quickly that way.

I just looked onto our old 2fort Clanserver and its still up and running and still as busy as it always was (10-16/16 players mostly). HL2DM is older than Guild Wars, so saying that Guild wars is old, stale and dying game seems pretty silly to me personally if I look back at an even older game where no major updates happen, there are no skills to choose from and there are no monthly Metas to follow.

Your saying that players should learn the maps and strategies but im saying if no one is willing to teach then no one will learn.

Smarty · Oct 21, 2010, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

[stuff that's been quoted a few times already]

You missed the point, probably because I didn't really make a serious attempt at making a point, so I'll clarify.

PvP appeals to a certain type of player. That type of player will be prepared to go through the learning curve and will shrug off the personal attacks and will stick at it no matter what because getting good and, ultimately, being the best is what they want from the game. Apart from the game itself being bad, or there being nobody left to play with/against, nothing is going to make that sort of player quit PvP.

The other types of player can sometimes be persuaded to try PvP even though it's not really their thing, if the price is right. However, even with the right incentive to give it a go, the hostile and unforgiving attitude of the PvP-oriented player towards newcomers is a *huge* barrier to continued participation for them, and no amount of well-meaning explanations as to why the attitude exists or telling them to "suck it up", "put up with it for a few months until you get good like we all had to do", "stop whining and expecting it to be handed to you on a plate for no effort", etc etc is going to make it any less of a barrier. From the perspective of the non-PvPer, that attitude is a genuine problem, and until it's understood and acknowledged as such and addressed by PvPers the attempt to draw non-PvPers into PvP is (on the whole) doomed to failure.

As you seemed to take my comment as me complaining about elitists stopping me personally from PvPing, I'll add a thrilling personal anecdote to this wall of text.

When I was attempting to make the move to PvP a year or so ago, I made a decision to deal with losing a lot and with whatever abuse I got for being a clueless noob along the way and try and work my way up. I did well enough in AB and HA to get noticed by and make friends with other newbies trying to make the break and with a few mid-range/rank HAers and GvGers, and got invited into teams and guilds and started playing some regular games with them, only to discover that spending that much time incommunicado with my family each day caused huge problems at home for me. I wasn't free at the right times of day, I wasn't free for long enough at a time, I couldn't use voice chat of an evening, etc etc. Much as I'd have liked to see how far I could have gotten (tbh probably not far, my age is starting to show), serious PvP and my lifestyle didn't go well together.

So, it wasn't a whinge, it was just a throwaway comment on the inability of the PvP community to really understand why their traditional attitude is so unappealing to non-PvPers.

urania · Oct 21, 2010, 10:59 PM // 22:59

not everyone can become a highly successful sportsman/woman either, nor forever stay at the top, so...? nothing essentially wrong with that.
well, unless you wanna achieve in few days/weeks what took them years to reach. with the exception of natural talents, perhaps.
its 2 different worlds and the gap between them is not the easiest to bridge.

Ensign · Oct 21, 2010, 11:11 PM // 23:11

RE: The original post:

A very large part of me just wants to dismiss the OP as a scrub and be done with it. I mean that in the nicest way possible, that scrubs are simply not competitive people, don't get any joy or satisfaction from competition and just don't understand why us competitive types do what we do - in exactly the same way that I can't understand how someone just can't be competitive at all. Maybe I can academically, but the mindset is alien.

I don't mean scrub to be the same as newbie, either. Everyone is a newbie at some point. But not all newbies are scrubs. Newbies want to get better; they are bad, but are trainable or will learn on their own. Scrubs are bad, and would rather argue with you about elitism or otherwise deny that they are bad than improve. I love playing with eager newbies; I can't stand playing with scrubs. Fortunately, scrubs would hate playing with me, so it's not exactly uni-directional.

RE: Structural problems with Guild Wars PvP:

Guild Wars is the most interdependent game I can remember playing. This is true for PvP and PvE. At the high end, this was a beautiful thing, with a ton of depth and teamwork; way more than anyone could understand or max. But it makes the game incredibly difficult to pick up or PUG. Just look at RA and how important getting a good mix of classes is; it's way more important than getting the best players.

FPS gameplay is so good in part because even if you have no clue what you're doing, you're still somewhat useful. Sure, you don't know the spots, you have no timing or map awareness and have bad engagements. But no one is relying upon you to play the game in a pick-up environment. Sure, you lose some teamplay, but everyone still gets to play the game. Guild Wars is the polar opposite. Each player has interconnected jobs that need doing to be successful, even at low levels of play, that make it absolutely miserable to take on new players. It's exactly equivalent to trying to PvE with an initiator who always seems to aggro 3 mobs then die just after pulling them back to your team - you get nothing done and leave the game angry.

So I understand why those kids in HA demand R9 for everything. Even if they can't get it, they've learned it's the only way they'll be able to play the game, enjoy themselves, and get better. And it just isn't going to happen. It's a design problem. You have an interconnected game with arcane victory conditions and non-intuitive strategies that result. Training the most eager of newbie up is going to involve a lot of losing, which people just won't put up with in a 5 year old game. The energy just isn't there.

Guild Wars 2 is being designed with these things in mind. Because as good as your PvP is, it needs to be accessable, which Guild Wars PvP is not. There needs to be room for scrubs to mix it up with bads and newbies, and it needs to be something a good player can play casually without tearing their hair out. That's the foundation of any good PvP game; Guild Wars never achieved that, and that's really the root of the problem.

Ariena Najea · Oct 21, 2010, 11:27 PM // 23:27

I'd like to start by saying I disagree with the OP on nearly every issue raised. Regardless, everyone has a right to their opinion, and posting useless garbage is simply of a waste of everyone's time. Regardless if you agree or disagree, non-constructive posts will be deleted. This is not special treatment for this thread, but rather the usual rules of this forum. This is merely a heated issue. As to the comment that this thread has remained open solely because a moderator made it, that is not how Guru operates. Unlike the closed threads in this forum, this isn't random QQ about nonsense, there are specific arguments that ought to be discussed.

Winterclaw, most of your arguments are coming from the PvP equivalent of bad pugs. The two aren't so different, which is why it's important to us to help people understand that just like in PvE, you have the best time playing with guildies and friends. We are also working to improve the attitude of PvP pubs.

As for your criticism towards the specific arenas, you can refer to my post here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=104

Lews · Oct 21, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

RE: Structural problems with Guild Wars PvP:

Guild Wars is the most interdependent game I can remember playing. This is true for PvP and PvE. At the high end, this was a beautiful thing, with a ton of depth and teamwork; way more than anyone could understand or max. But it makes the game incredibly difficult to pick up or PUG. Just look at RA and how important getting a good mix of classes is; it's way more important than getting the best players.

Guild Wars 2 is being designed with these things in mind. Because as good as your PvP is, it needs to be accessable, which Guild Wars PvP is not. There needs to be room for scrubs to mix it up with bads and newbies, and it needs to be something a good player can play casually without tearing their hair out. That's the foundation of any good PvP game; Guild Wars never achieved that, and that's really the root of the problem.

Ensign! I'm glad to see you're still around and still as eloquent as ever.

I really hope you're right about GW2. I think Arena Net started to realize this at the end, which is why they put in the monthly tournaments. It finally gave people a chance to mess around on the ladder, trying experimental builds and playing with newbies, but it meant that just messing around on the ladder wasn't going to end up disqualifying you from the tournament. If you had enough points at the end of the month you still got in the tournament where you could play with 100% seriousness.

I just hope that they won't go too far with GW2. As you said, at the very high end PvP is an amazingly beautiful act. Everyone has their part and, done correctly, it is a fantastic thing to experience. It's one of the few things that brings me back to this game - I miss that. The feeling of a well-run machine or some play. Everyone working together, everyone fulfilling their role. Hopefully with GW2 Arena Net can strike that balance between accessibility and depth.

FoxBat · Oct 22, 2010, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Leaving aside the whole blame game, I'm don't think the point that formats need to be burned and/or reconstructed dramatically can be disputed if you ever expect to get matches. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, it's the only thing that can be done to salvage any amount of PvP left.

*lemming* · Oct 22, 2010, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smarty

PvP appeals to a certain type of player. That type of player will be prepared to go through the learning curve and will shrug off the personal attacks and will stick at it no matter what because getting good and, ultimately, being the best is what they want from the game. Apart from the game itself being bad, or there being nobody left to play with/against, nothing is going to make that sort of player quit PvP.

The other types of player can sometimes be persuaded to try PvP even though it's not really their thing, if the price is right. However, even with the right incentive to give it a go, the hostile and unforgiving attitude of the PvP-oriented player towards newcomers is a *huge* barrier to continued participation for them, and no amount of well-meaning explanations as to why the attitude exists or telling them to "suck it up", "put up with it for a few months until you get good like we all had to do", "stop whining and expecting it to be handed to you on a plate for no effort", etc etc is going to make it any less of a barrier. From the perspective of the non-PvPer, that attitude is a genuine problem, and until it's understood and acknowledged as such and addressed by PvPers the attempt to draw non-PvPers into PvP is (on the whole) doomed to failure.

Trying to get PvEers to try organized PvP is mostly going to be catering to the former category. It's a safe bet that there's quite a few of them who've never dabbled in it because of hearsay or poor experiences with the underclass of morons in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette

snip

You'll probably insist that you've done so already, but I implore you to read Auron's posts again.

I'm not expecting you to agree, but it doesn't make for much of a discussion or debate when one party is willfully ignoring the other's points.

Still Number One · Oct 22, 2010, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lews

Ensign! I'm glad to see you're still around and still as eloquent as ever.

I really hope you're right about GW2.

I really think he will be simply because of the hot join-able PvP they have talked about. It kind of solves the problem GW1 always had. Ensign summed it up perfectly (should I be surprised?) in his comparison of GW to an FPS. A.Net also acknowledged that comparison because it has been brought up many times over the years. And in Guild Wars 2 they are finally giving us the casual yet competitive environment that this game so desperately needs.

Its unfortunate they haven't added a format like it to GW1 but it likely wouldn't work anyway considering how heavily relied on monks are. GW 2 will be designed so that we don't have to worry about what we'll get, and just be happy we have other players to fight along side of. Of course they could completely fail to execute but from the little knowledge that has been given to us, they seem to understand the key issues and are hopefully resolving them.

As far as this thread goes, it truly sucks to know there are people like the OP out there influencing others. I knew it was the case because I run into them all the time, but it always sucks to realize they are there. The PvP community has them too, but mostly they have been bottled up in RA and HA. Unfortunately for us those are the two arenas the PvEers are attracted to because RA is accessible and HA has the emotes and end chests that PvEers seem to crave. I'll never understand why, but to each his own I guess.

trialist · Oct 22, 2010, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

A very large part of me just wants to dismiss the OP as a scrub and be done with it. I mean that in the nicest way possible, that scrubs are simply not competitive people, don't get any joy or satisfaction from competition and just don't understand why us competitive types do what we do - in exactly the same way that I can't understand how someone just can't be competitive at all. Maybe I can academically, but the mindset is alien.

Scrubs have that mindset because they are ignoring rule number 1 of any pvp game, GW or otherwise: that you have to be willing to, and accept that you will lose. Assuming a static pvp player pool, then the ratio of winners to losers is always going to end up being 50 : 50. Its pvp, someone has to lose. Its a zero-sum game.

Its not pve where everyone can win and win always. Going into pvp and expecting a 100% win record always is impossible, unless you are cheating or making use of some exploit.

This is where some of the newbies venturing into pvp err by having this entirely wrong mindset from the get go, eventually ending up as scrubs. If you can't accept that you will lose in pvp, then you have no business even trying to pvp in the first place. You are simply not cut out for pvp if you only want to win and win always, never accepting losses. Which is why scrubs are simply not competitive people, they can't accept losing and get no joy or satisfaction when they do and will never understand competitive types who are able to handle losing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

FPS gameplay is so good in part because even if you have no clue what you're doing, you're still somewhat useful. Sure, you don't know the spots, you have no timing or map awareness and have bad engagements. But no one is relying upon you to play the game in a pick-up environment. Sure, you lose some teamplay, but everyone still gets to play the game. Guild Wars is the polar opposite. Each player has interconnected jobs that need doing to be successful, even at low levels of play, that make it absolutely miserable to take on new players. It's exactly equivalent to trying to PvE with an initiator who always seems to aggro 3 mobs then die just after pulling them back to your team - you get nothing done and leave the game angry.

This part is very true. In a FPS game, a solo player can actually go "hero" and win a team match all by his lonesome, by being the sharpshooter storming and annihilating the entire opposition without his own teammates even firing a shot. However in GW, that is all but impossible. GW is a game that requires teamwork and you win or lose because of it.

Individual acts of skill can't ever win you a gvg match. Individual acts of stupidity though can lose the entire match. In GW, especially gvg, its not so much as who is the best player on the team as to which team has the least players making mistakes. That team is likely to be the winner most times even if their players may not be the absolute best. Which is why there is this reluctance of experienced players taking on new players to show them the ropes, because no matter how well the 7 experienced guys play, the 1 newbie can just lose the whole match for everyone in one moment of stupidity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Guild Wars 2 is being designed with these things in mind. Because as good as your PvP is, it needs to be accessable, which Guild Wars PvP is not. There needs to be room for scrubs to mix it up with bads and newbies, and it needs to be something a good player can play casually without tearing their hair out. That's the foundation of any good PvP game; Guild Wars never achieved that, and that's really the root of the problem.

Hopefully it turns out that way.

Cantos · Oct 22, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Guild Wars 2 is being designed with these things in mind.

Please elaborate on this point.

urania · Oct 22, 2010, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

RE: Structural problems with Guild Wars PvP:

Guild Wars is the most interdependent game I can remember playing. This is true for PvP and PvE. At the high end, this was a beautiful thing, with a ton of depth and teamwork; way more than anyone could understand or max. But it makes the game incredibly difficult to pick up or PUG. Just look at RA and how important getting a good mix of classes is; it's way more important than getting the best players.

i disagree. unless you get a team with overheal or lack of damage, good players will ALWAYS give your team the edge over rest, even if you dont have the perfect setup (like a n+w+r+mo combo). sadly, there's no good players left in RA, or in GW, for that matter.

interdependency is an issue because of power creep too. some skills are just so powerful they need to be shutdown in one way or another to ensure a win fast enough before the opponent team takes the win instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Guild Wars 2 is being designed with these things in mind. Because as good as your PvP is, it needs to be accessable, which Guild Wars PvP is not. There needs to be room for scrubs to mix it up with bads and newbies, and it needs to be something a good player can play casually without tearing their hair out. That's the foundation of any good PvP game; Guild Wars never achieved that, and that's really the root of the problem.

and that is why GW2 pvp will never be as good as that of GW 3 years ago.
i can only see one way for pvp to be accessible, as you put it, and that is to create a mass pvp area where everyone can join in and be useful in some way, more often than not simply be mobbing everything in sight.
i dont see good pvp be accessible to casual players, or at least not the higher end of it, so do elaborate on this wonder pvp you're talking about, because my expectations of GW2 are nothing short of horrid.
remember that one size does not and will not fit all.

JR · Oct 22, 2010, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

FPS gameplay is so good in part because even if you have no clue what you're doing, you're still somewhat useful. Sure, you don't know the spots, you have no timing or map awareness and have bad engagements. But no one is relying upon you to play the game in a pick-up environment. Sure, you lose some teamplay, but everyone still gets to play the game. Guild Wars is the polar opposite. Each player has interconnected jobs that need doing to be successful, even at low levels of play, that make it absolutely miserable to take on new players. It's exactly equivalent to trying to PvE with an initiator who always seems to aggro 3 mobs then die just after pulling them back to your team - you get nothing done and leave the game angry.

I agree with all of your post, up to here. To reiterate my earlier point: I think the lack of competitive down-time (as found in FPS games) was way more damaging to PuG play and accessibility than the enhanced interconnection of roles. Not saying the latter wasn't a factor, but it was much less of one.

Lord Mip · Oct 22, 2010, 10:37 AM // 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

not everyone can become a highly successful sportsman/woman either, nor forever stay at the top, so...? nothing essentially wrong with that.
well, unless you wanna achieve in few days/weeks what took them years to reach. with the exception of natural talents, perhaps.
its 2 different worlds and the gap between them is not the easiest to bridge.

Lowering the barrier doesn't mean you have to train new Olympic champions. In real life sports, there are amateur ways to enjoy a game. Some of these amateurs will decide to bring their skills to a new level by competing at the top level, and this way, the professionals will always be fueled by fresh batches of players. Since GW PvP'ers scare off all the potential recruits, they spell their own demise. And please don't blame Arenanet for the steep learning curve: There are plenty of games with steep learning curves but with a great community to help others out, host tournaments for people who are not so great at PvP as their fellow 'elite players'. A good example of this is Counter Strike: Source.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

Your experiment is flawed in many ways. Firstly, you're ignoring that all PvPers went through this already. We weren't handed max rank titles, we had to grind them. We had to play our way through shitty groups with terrible attitudes to get our way up. Nobody is saying it's easy, we're just saying it's not impossible unless you quit after 5 minutes.

That's all it takes.

And you accuse PvE of grinding ..

I am not interested in a stupid shiny PvP title for my Hall of Monuments. I could just do some boring Codex Syncing if I desperately wanted those points. I just want to enjoy PvP, and as an ex ladder GvG player (Back in 2005) I daresay I qualify for your 'not being completely bad' requirement. I am turned off off PvP at the moment however, because of the demeaning attitude that's hanging like a choking fog over all the PvP arenas. PvE'ers are bad, and if you don't want to give up your personal and GW life to waste 5 hours a day for half a year to get a rank and some knowledge, then you are a noob and not worth our effort. WRONG! You need us scrubs to keep your precious PvP going.

I play this game for fun, and I could have been a PvP'er to make your Halls a less dead place, but you just completely turned off a potential PvP'er. Hell, I know more PvP'ers back from the time when R3 was enough (which is still too much) and who went to PvE because high end PvP'ers expect you to destroy your personal life.

Maybe this has been a bit too much of a rage post on my part, but it is an issue which has bothered me for all these years.

urania · Oct 22, 2010, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mip

Lowering the barrier doesn't mean you have to train new Olympic champions. In real life sports, there are amateur ways to enjoy a game. Some of these amateurs will decide to bring their skills to a new level by competing at the top level, and this way, the professionals will always be fueled by fresh batches of players. Since GW PvP'ers scare off all the potential recruits, they spell their own demise. And please don't blame Arenanet for the steep learning curve: There are plenty of games with steep learning curves but with a great community to help others out, host tournaments for people who are not so great at PvP as their fellow 'elite players'. A good example of this is Counter Strike: Source.

there are (or were, at least) ways for occasional players to enjoy the game too, with the exception of high-end pvp level.

i mean, you seriously cant expect that higher levels will easily be accessible to newcomers after 5 years? you'd really be delusional then.
as a matter of fact, the way Anet has balanced pvp since years actually makes it possible to learn how to play in pvp far, far more easy than in the past - with the tactical aspect virtually eliminated from the game and replaced by power creep skills, you honestly cant say its hard to learn to be at least average. but learning to be good, or even really good, is practically impossible, because the requirements (along with the competition) to reach that level of play no longer exist.
so WHY do we even discuss this ridiculous "issue" when we all know its basically nothing more but arguing for the same of arguing.

Lord Mip · Oct 22, 2010, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

there are (or were, at least) ways for occasional players to enjoy the game too, with the exception of high-end pvp level.

i mean, you seriously cant expect that higher levels will easily be accessible to newcomers after 5 years? you'd really be delusional then.
as a matter of fact, the way Anet has balanced pvp since years actually makes it possible to learn how to play in pvp far, far more easy than in the past - with the tactical aspect virtually eliminated from the game and replaced by power creep skills, you honestly cant say its hard to learn to be at least average. but learning to be good, or even really good, is practically impossible, because the requirements (along with the competition) to reach that level of play no longer exist.
so WHY do we even discuss this ridiculous "issue" when we all know its basically nothing more but arguing for the same of arguing.

I never actually said that the PvP was very hard to learn. For an average PvP-er, a FotM team build would be enough, and running that isn't too hard to learn. The problem is people to play with. People who don't accept you until a certain rank is met.